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| Posted: Tue Jun 8th, 2010 04:17 pm |
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1st Post |
AdamMcLean
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A few days ago I received an email from one of those people that places hundreds of tarot card images of full decks onto a web site, despite the fact that that these are copyright. This person congratulated me on my collection of tarot cards and wanted me to scan these in and send them to them to place on their web site.
I was rather annoyed by this and let this person know that they were destroying sales of tarot, and stealing income from tarot artists and publishers.
Sadly, such people think they are doing something positive for tarot, when in fact they are eroding the income of both artists and publishers. This makes it more difficult for tarots to be published.
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| Posted: Tue Jun 8th, 2010 04:43 pm |
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2nd Post |
Quarkling
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This sounds like the same person who used those tactics on AT. Congratulate the person on their collection, then ask for scans. He used several names, and contacted almost everyone with a large collection, but has since been banned from the site.
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| Posted: Tue Jun 8th, 2010 05:04 pm |
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3rd Post |
Sebille
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I got an e-mail a few days ago at my AIM address, same stuff, asking for scans. They're probably contacting everyone here who lists an e-mail address. I just told the person I don't have a scanner.
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| Posted: Tue Jun 8th, 2010 05:19 pm |
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4th Post |
gregory
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Yeah - bet it's that one again.... ?
I have had SO many PMs from this guy, and he's been begging on threads and all sorts.
Last edited on Tue Jun 8th, 2010 05:33 pm by gregory
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| Posted: Tue Jun 8th, 2010 05:28 pm |
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AdamMcLean
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Gregory, perhaps you should edit out that address. We should not really give these thieves publicity.
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| Posted: Tue Jun 8th, 2010 05:33 pm |
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6th Post |
gregory
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Done. I assume it was the same guy then ?
He made the mistake of asking a mod on AT to scan decks for him 
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| Posted: Tue Jun 8th, 2010 05:36 pm |
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AdamMcLean
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The person you indicated appears to be the same one who contacted me.
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| Posted: Tue Jun 8th, 2010 05:39 pm |
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8th Post |
gregory
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I've even reported him to his website host, but it seems to have had no effect.....
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| Posted: Wed Jun 9th, 2010 07:58 am |
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9th Post |
goldenweb
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I had one too, I didn't answer it.
Pen
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alma ajo
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What web address is? How is it called the guy?
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AdamMcLean
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I have reported this person to the site owner, which is Multiply, a US based company. I would expect them to ignore this. The owners of such sites which provide a free space in which to place your images, are also to blame, as they do not attempt in any way to screen content and rarely reply to complaints. I had a similar situation recently with Ebay. These big companies do not care about piracy of material from small companies who do not have the legal representation to fight the issue. They parasitise small publishers - only removing material stolen from large publishing companies when faced with an expensive legal process.
People, trying to justify this, say these medium res images are worthless for printing out but why then is the Gilded Tarot on this site provided in high resolution scans ?
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AdamMcLean
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alma ajo wrote: What web address is? How is it called the guy?
I don't want to give this site or this person any publicity here. Please do not post his web site details.
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AdamMcLean
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In following up this person's contact I found another person putting full sets of tarot images onto their web site.
I was dismayed to see some of my own tarots - My recently published Goth Tarot and my Lebanese Tarot. Now, I have never allowed the full set of images for any of my tarots to be made available to anyone, so this person must have bought a copy or borrowed it from someone who bought a copy then scanned it.
Sales of my Goth tarot have totally collapsed in April and May I only sold three copies.
I would like the person behind this site, who hides behind the name ARCANA XV, to know that they are damaging my ability to continue producing tarots. Their activiity is killing tarot publishing.
It is difficult enough publishing tarot and supporting tarot artists without this.
Please everyone write to this person and get this stopped.
This person apparently goes under the name of Mary J and quite brazenly puts all these images onto her Multiply site.
If anyone knows her please let her know how much she is damaging modern tarot publishing
[ Link to the site removed later when this person removed my material. ]
Last edited on Wed Jun 9th, 2010 06:45 pm by AdamMcLean
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gregory
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That's odd - wasn't it she who took all hers DOWN last year ?
I'll PM her on AT.....
Done. I'll let you know what she says.
Last edited on Wed Jun 9th, 2010 10:21 am by gregory
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AdamMcLean
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The person behind this ArcanaXV site writes in her blog
Some of you may have noticed that two of my decks are no longer in my gallery. The Tarot of Dreams and the Gilded Tarot, both by Ciro Marchetti, have been removed from public view at the request of the creator. Ciro feels that Multiply's terms of service are unacceptable as they directly conflict with his business. This also means that I will not be adding the Legacy of the Divine deck to my gallery. While I'm sorry that I no longer can share the beauty of these decks with you, I understand and respect Ciro's decision.
Why does this person persist in ignoring the fact that all modern tarots are copyright?
Why should Ciro Marchetti have to go to all the bother of writing to Multiply to get this matter dealt with?
Why is my material still on her site?
"Sharing the beauty of these decks with you" actually means stealing the income and sales from tarot publishers and artists. If this persists there will be less and less tarots published, and this person will be partly responsible for this.
Last edited on Wed Jun 9th, 2010 10:40 am by AdamMcLean
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Jackdaw
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Sorry, but isn't this a little inconsistent? You make such a fuss about NOT giving the first person from AT any publicity and request over and over that we refrain from mentioning his name and website. But then you not only provide a web name, but a direct link to the second one. Is it because you're affected personally by the second?
I freely admit that I like these multiply websites. I buy decks because I want to use them, and I want to see all cards before I purchase, to see whether it is something I might be able to work with. The sample cards on various sites I find not to be indicative of what the deck as a whole will be.
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AdamMcLean
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Jackdaw wrote: Sorry, but isn't this a little inconsistent? You make such a fuss about NOT giving the first person from AT any publicity and request over and over that we refrain from mentioning his name and website. But then you not only provide a web name, but a direct link to the second one. Is it because you're affected personally by the second?
I only put the link to her photos in an attempt to have people identify the culprit so that she could be contacted and asked to stop putting these copyright images online.
I freely admit that I like these multiply websites. I buy decks because I want to use them, and I want to see all cards before I purchase, to see whether it is something I might be able to work with. The sample cards on various sites I find not to be indicative of what the deck as a whole will be.
Oh well I may have to give up publishing tarot if people continue to
download images of my decks for free.
It seems strange that you criticise me for trying to protect my own work and that of other tarot publishers and artists.
I despair sometimes.
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goldenweb
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This person on Multiply is not the one who contacted me - my request was from Japan.
Pen
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Jackdaw
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AdamMcLean wrote: Oh well I may have to give up publishing tarot if people continue to
download images of my decks for free.
It seems strange that you criticise me for trying to protect my own work and that of other tarot publishers and artists.
I despair sometimes.
I didn't criticize your defense of your work, Adam. You deliberately misunderstand me.
What I criticized was the uneven treatment of the people who steal (for want of a better word) these images. If you want to make a public example of the person who is displaying YOUR decks, then go for it. It's your right. But isn't that giving her the publicity that you are so adamant about not giving the first person?
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Jackdaw
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Since you're still choosing not to see my point, so will I.
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Mr. la-luna
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goldenweb wrote: This person on Multiply is not the one who contacted me - my request was from Japan.
Pen
mine to he conacted me at AT and via my blog...
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lunakasha
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goldenweb wrote: This person on Multiply is not the one who contacted me - my request was from Japan.
Pen
I received a PM (at Aeclectic) from someone in Japan also. I did not respond at all to him/her.
Last night I received another PM (also at Aeclectic) from a different user with only one post count. He was requesting a PDF document which was created by a longtime AT member, and which represented a TON of work~ a labor of love based on his study of the Liber T. Again, I did not respond at all; instead, I forwarded the PM to the person who created this document, so that he was aware of the situation.
But yes, this sort of thing really pisses me off. 
~Luna
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gregory
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That pdf document is widely available from the AT member who encourages people to ask for it - he sends it to ANYONE for free ! But yes - the new member should ask its creator to send it.
Adam - I think JD's point was simply that you have named someone here, after asking me not to give the Japanese guy publicity.
I HAVE identified the perosn who has your decks up there, and I HAVE PMd her; perhaps it's time to take her name down from this thread too ?
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lunakasha
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gregory wrote: That pdf document is widely available from the AT member who encourages people to ask for it - he sends it to ANYONE for free ! But yes - the new member should ask its creator to send it.
Very true. Which is why I forwarded the PM to the creator so he could decide whether or not he wanted to share the work with an unknown person. I know if it were me, I would hope that someone else would do the same.
 Luna
Last edited on Wed Jun 9th, 2010 05:31 pm by lunakasha
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papoon
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Adam, you can issue a DCMA (Digital Millennium Copyright Act) takedown notice to both Multiply and their ISP under the DCMA Title II: Online Copyright Infringement Liability Limitation Act. You'll find an overview here. And note the "Notice from Copyright Owner" section and "Takedown example" here.
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papoon
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Oops, double post. Sorry. Last edited on Wed Jun 9th, 2010 06:28 pm by papoon
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AdamMcLean
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I managed to locate the person who had put up complete scans of two of my tarot decks and wrote a strong email to them. I also made a complaint to Multiply. Gregory also located this individual and wrote to them.
Now (as of a few minutes ago) the arcanaxv site has been altered and images of the two tarot decks removed.
I also received an email back from this individual, who writes in a tone of self-justification with no apology. This person wrote to me
I am not a pirate. I have legally purchased every single deck in my gallery.
Sadly they are a pirate. They may have bought a deck but they did not buy the rights to publish those images on a website. I bought the rights to publish these works. I paid the artist. I have a contact for the publishing rights. They just stole their material without even asking.
When I wrote to this person I requested that they remove not just my material but that they should not be showing any complete decks. They can, under the provisions of the copyright act show a few images for the purpose of review, comment, or scholarly analysis.
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gregory
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Actually if you look at her site now, she has taken what you said on board; she says she was naive and that most of her complete decks will be taken down.
During the next few weeks, I will be making changes to my Tarot Gallery and full deck scans will no longer be available. I've been thinking about this for some time now and an email I received today made me decide it was time to do this.
My love affair with tarot has blinded me to the fact that many people use sites like mine for nefarious purposes. I've been naive enough to think that most visitors to this webpage are like me, tarot collectors in love with the art, who just want to have a look at the whole deck before they decide to purchase it. It appears that may not always be the case and sites like mine may be goldmines for those who create fraudulent copies of tarot decks. I genuinely thought I was helping the tarot community, but I may be hurting it instead, which was the last thing I ever wanted to do.
Most of the decks in my Tarot Gallery will not be available for viewing until I'm done making the changes.
Thanks for your understanding, everyone! Last edited on Wed Jun 9th, 2010 06:55 pm by gregory
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goldenweb
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At the bottom of the page:
Now that you have individual card images of your Tarot deck, be sure to back them up so you do not waste your efforts. And now you are ready to enjoy your images or share them. But also please respect the copyright owner and do not illegally distribute the content without permission.
It appears to be a password-protected private-access site (for the gallery), which perhaps is not so bad.
I was looking at Albideuter earlier, and noticed that he seems to have been granted permission to use each of the decks displayed on his website.
Pen
Last edited on Wed Jun 9th, 2010 09:38 pm by goldenweb
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AdamMcLean
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goldenweb wrote: It appears to be a password-protected private-access site (for the gallery), which perhaps is not so bad.
Yes but presumably you pay something to join his group and gain access to this part of the site. He has no right to sell access to other peoples' material. Who knows what people who pay their fee and download the files will later do with them.
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gregory
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Sorry Adam - but you BETTER believe it - it DOES happen all the time.
Email him (there is a link) and tell him what you think - you can at least ask him to use another deck....
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| Posted: Thu Jun 10th, 2010 01:56 am |
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34th Post |
rylla
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I guess the Tower will fall over me after this posting, but actually I do like to see/check out all the cards before I'm buying instead of being in the dark about what I'm buying. So I'm actually grate full to people on multiply and other sites who post them. They do not gain anything with it, I guess, jut doing us a favor, out of love for tarot and sharing their joy.
I bought many decks after seeing them on multiply, etc, which I would've not buy otherwise. An example is Adam's Goth tarot - I was undecided about having another gothic tarot - but after seeing those beautiful pictures on multiply (all of them, in bigger size) - well, I'm sending to you Adam my request next week -
I can't imagine people wanting to make their own deck if they are available on the market. I don't know about other countries, but in Canada, a good quality print, both sides, on good quality paper cost at FedEx (former Kinkos) around $3. Do the math. To print out and make a deck exp. the Legacy of the Divine, cost much more than buying it at Amazon! And no matter what, one would not get the quality of Adam's decks (and the deck would not have any market value either - I'm just saying)
ya, there will always be people who take advantage - just as with welfare, or health care, etc - but i believe it would be just a small minority - and it shouldn't be the factor that dictate our actions (sorry - it doesn't sound too clear -anyway is just my point of view)
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| Posted: Thu Jun 10th, 2010 03:18 am |
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35th Post |
Penthasilia
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But there should be a difference between being able to visualize the cards and actually being able to download them in high definition wouldn't there? I agree, I do like to see the cards before I buy them (yayyy for Aeclectic) but not all places where you view them have ability to download them. Or am I wrong on this?????
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| Posted: Thu Jun 10th, 2010 07:00 am |
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36th Post |
Abrac
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Most online scans aren't worth the trouble of downloading, even the so-called high-resolution ones. They look pretty good at first but when you really start looking most of them suck. Even the ones at Albideuter are total crap. They're big, but they don't have borders and colors are pitiful.
I totally agree with rylla. It would be so expensive and time-consuming to actually make a decent deck from online scans practically no one is gonna do it.
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| Posted: Thu Jun 10th, 2010 08:56 am |
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37th Post |
BabaStudio
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Abrac wrote: Most online scans aren't worth the trouble of downloading, even the so-called high-resolution ones. They look pretty good at first but when you really start looking most of them suck. Even the ones at Albideuter are total crap. They're big, but they don't have borders and colors are pitiful.
I totally agree with rylla. It would be so expensive and time-consuming to actually make a decent deck from online scans practically no one is gonna do it.
There are actually two problems with decks being shown at Multiply:
1. Multiply sells prints and various products with the deck images on them. We have actually bought items with the Bohemian Gothic pictures (extremely badly printed and with the tops cut off) on them. The items they sell - and from which they make profit - are hideously badly resized and cropped and look awful. This is clearly damaging both our sales and our reputation.
By the way, on a human level, it's also upsetting to see images we worked hard on messed up in this way - Alex physically could not look at the stuff we bought (to use as evidence if we need it in court) from Multiply. The pictures were savaged.
2. The way that copyright works the copyright holder HAS to act on every copyright violation known to them, otherwise they can weaken their case against copyright violations of their work. I was a brand manager at a large global corporate for some years and this fact was drummed into us constantly. This means that I now have to use valuable time to complain to both Multiply and the person scanning and publishing our images illegally every time this happens. Theft of time damages our ability to get on with our main work - design.
In our case there is absolutely no excuse for these images being shown as we have our own sites where people can see the cards.
By the way, the good news is that BY LAW Multiply, and other providers, have to remove the offending material. However, getting them to do so can take time, effort and persistence. None of which I want to be investing in what's basically a thankless task. I agree with Adam too - you almost never get an apology for the person who steals the material, publishes it and gets you into spending hours of valuable time sorting out the situation.
Last edited on Thu Jun 10th, 2010 09:02 am by BabaStudio
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| Posted: Thu Jun 10th, 2010 09:16 am |
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38th Post |
AdamMcLean
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rylla wrote: So I'm actually grate full to people on multiply and other sites who post them.
It saddens me to read this.
It just shows me how far I am from many people in the tarot collecting community.
The reality is that over the last year or so I have had to seriously consider giving up publishing tarot as I perceive my sales are affected by ths illegal distribution of scans of compete decks. I had expected some support for a stand against this growth of complete deck scans, but it seems a number of people condone and seem to be actively encouraging others to pirate decks.
It is so depressing to read comments such as these.
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| Posted: Thu Jun 10th, 2010 09:19 am |
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39th Post |
gregory
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Right on, Karen - much as I like to look at all these sites. And kudos to the offender Adam named yesterday for the public rethink on her site. (and I DO think it is time her name was taken down; I removed that of the REAL offender at Adam's request - and she is still at it
It could be worse and sometimes is. There is the matter of Visualtarot - still out there and ripping people off..... not to mention scribd, whose activities have resulted in Adam no longer offering his excellent DVD and online courses. :(
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| Posted: Thu Jun 10th, 2010 09:33 am |
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40th Post |
AdamMcLean
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gregory wrote: kudos to the offender Adam named yesterday for the public rethink on her site.
This public rethink sadly does not really represent this persons true attitude. This person wrote to me to say :-
I've removed the Goth and Lebanese Tarots from public view on my tarot page along with any reference, recommendation, nice comment or link to your website I've ever made.
In other words, they see me as the offender, and think it justified to remove any recommendation or nice comment about the tarot decks. I am made the culprit. This person knew they were doing wrong as they had already had to remove Ciro Marcetti's decks after an earlier complaint. They are not the innocent naive person they appear to be. They are only annoyed at being found out and forced to remove my copyright material.
I have received no apology from this person. That in itself speaks to their attitude.
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| Posted: Thu Jun 10th, 2010 09:44 am |
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41st Post |
BabaStudio
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I had a very similar unpleasant and accusatory response from someone who had our decks on her Multiply site.
So I have to wonder what she expects. That I do nothing and risk losing the copyright over images that literally took us thousands of hours of hard work to produce? That I do nothing and allow Multiply to butcher our pictures and sell items with those butchered pictures on them?
Just so that she can attract a few more people to her Multiply site?
It leaves me lost for words.
Last edited on Thu Jun 10th, 2010 09:46 am by BabaStudio
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| Posted: Thu Jun 10th, 2010 09:47 am |
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42nd Post |
AdamMcLean
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gregory wrote: There is the matter of Visualtarot - still out there and ripping people off.....
I see Penelope's Pen Tarot is in Visualtarot. I wonder if she gave permission for their use. The Aleph Tarot which I repackaged and distributed is also in their list. I was never consulted on their use.
not to mention scribd, whose activities have resulted in Adam no longer offering his excellent DVD and online courses.
I have made more progress with Scribd. They have now developed a template where you can list items that infringe your copyright and have them removed. As Karen noted, filling in such forms is really time consuming as you have to list every url on their site and give evidence that you are the copyright holder for the items. I spent two hours yesterday filling in the Scribd forms. This removal only applies to what is on there site today. If someone relists them I have to go through the whole palaver again noting the then different urls.
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| Posted: Thu Jun 10th, 2010 09:59 am |
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43rd Post |
BabaStudio
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AdamMcLean wrI see Penelope's Pen Tarot is in Visualtarot. I wonder if she gave permission for their use. The Aleph Tarot which I repackaged and distributed is also in their list. I was never consulted on their use.
Visual Tarot appears to be a criminal outfit. When we asked them to remove our decks they refused. I'd advise anyone who is considering going anywhere near this software to read Jean-Michel David's article about it:
http://newsletter.tarotstudies.org/2009/06/visual-tarot-program-scam/
He is of the opinion that it's probably a front for a phishing scam.
Last edited on Thu Jun 10th, 2010 10:06 am by BabaStudio
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| Posted: Thu Jun 10th, 2010 10:15 am |
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44th Post |
gregory
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AdamMcLean wrote: gregory wrote:
In other words, they see me as the offender, and think it justified to remove any recommendation or nice comment about the tarot decks. I am made the culprit. This person knew they were doing wrong as they had already had to remove Ciro Marcetti's decks after an earlier complaint. They are not the innocent naive person they appear to be. They are only annoyed at being found out and forced to remove my copyright material.
I have received no apology from this person. That in itself speaks to their attitude.
WELL - when she and I were PMing she mad it quite clear that she did take the point and regretted the whole thing. So..... I guess it depends on the tone of the request to remove ?
And yes - VT is a phishing scam - but still lists all these decks, and someone on AT did manage to download some a while ago....
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| Posted: Thu Jun 10th, 2010 10:19 am |
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45th Post |
AdamMcLean
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gregory wrote: WELL - when she and I were PMing she mad it quite clear that she did take the point and regretted the whole thing. So..... I guess it depends on the tone of the request to remove ?
It is strange that you get the apology and expression of regret.
I should employ you as my secretary 
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| Posted: Thu Jun 10th, 2010 10:24 am |
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46th Post |
gregory
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How much will you pay me ????
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| Posted: Thu Jun 10th, 2010 10:33 am |
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47th Post |
AdamMcLean
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gregory wrote: So..... I guess it depends on the tone of the request to remove ?
Did this person complain to you about the tone of my request? Again I seem to be being labelled as the offender. I do take exception to this.
Here is the text of the email I sent this person
On the 14th of February and the 28th of March 2010 you bought a copy of my Lebanese and Goth tarots.
Today I was dismayed to see some of my own tarots - my recently published Goth Tarot and my Lebanese Tarot on a site on Multiply, arcanaxv.multiply.com.
Now, I have never allowed the full set of images for any of my tarots to be made available to anyone, so the person running this site must have bought a copy, or borrowed it from someone who bought a copy, then scanned it.
Sales of my Goth tarot have totally collapsed in April and May I only sold three copies. If you are the person behind this site, hiding behind the name ARCANA XV, know that you are damaging my ability to continue producing tarots. ARCANA XV's activity is killing tarot publishing.
It is difficult enough publishing tarot and supporting tarot artists without this. Other tarot pirates, for that is what ARCANA XV is, will lift these images from this site and place them on their sites. For ever more these images will be easily available on the internet.
If you are the person behind this site please understand YOU ARE DAMAGING TAROT PUBLISHING, ruining publishers ability to continue supporting artists.
If you are not the person behind ARCANA XV, then my apologies for troubling you.
This is not an offensive email. It may be hard hitting, direct and explicit, but then I already knew this person had been requested to remove Ciro Marcetti's complete deck images from their site and must have been aware that they should not be publishing these images without permission from the copyright holder. I had to make my position quite clear. It is obvious to me that this has damaged sales of the Goth Tarot. No one can survive financially on 3 sales in two months. This site had destroyed my sales of the Goth Tarot. I had every right to make this person aware of the consequences of their action. This is not an offensive email.
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| Posted: Thu Jun 10th, 2010 10:41 am |
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48th Post |
gregory
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| Joined: | Wed Sep 12th, 2007 |
| Location: | United Kingdom |
| Posts: | 3281 |
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No - I was rather less "direct" though; I said something like "please take them down, Adam is a really nice guy and you've really hit his sales - and it IS breach of copyright, even if you own the decks.....Not a nice thing to do to small publishers, who are really struggling...."
Played touchingly on the old heart strings.....
Though I would have avoided your capital letters bit, since you ask ! and maybe the word "hiding". It wasn't hard to identify her, after all.... You will not find me under my real name on line (well, one person posted it on another forum; I was NOT pleased, but still....) I'm not hiding, I am private on the web. There is a difference.
I get VERY little spam. I think that is part of why....
ETA though - about sales - as a matter of interest, one stellar seller you and I both know, Adam, is likely to cease trading shortly. He has not sold a single deck since he got all the new LS titles in..... and his sales are down to 25% of what they were just a couple of years ago.... VERY sad.
Last edited on Thu Jun 10th, 2010 10:44 am by gregory
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| Posted: Thu Jun 10th, 2010 11:39 am |
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49th Post |
goldenweb
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AdamMcLean wrote: I see Penelope's Pen Tarot is in Visualtarot. I wonder if she gave permission for their use. The Aleph Tarot which I repackaged and distributed is also in their list. I was never consulted on their use.
Adam, I had no idea, and wasn't asked permission. All the images are on the Fig Tree Press website and have been lifted from there rather than scanned from a deck, as they are the same size: 236px x 368px.
The deck is now OOP, but cards made from these images wouldn't be worth having.
Pen
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| Posted: Thu Jun 10th, 2010 11:50 am |
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50th Post |
gregory
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| Joined: | Wed Sep 12th, 2007 |
| Location: | United Kingdom |
| Posts: | 3281 |
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Actually, JMD suggested that they don't actually HAVE any decks, they just take your money and then abuse your credit card. I have no idea if this is true....
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