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| Posted: Tue Feb 2nd, 2010 10:08 am |
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1st Post |
Sumada
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Hi there,
I recently picked up an older Oswald Wirth deck that appears to be from the same printing as the two-cards-per-page publication by Le Symbolisme from 1926, but these are actual cards in a nice old slipcase sort of box.
As a nice surprise, it turned out to have a dedication and what appears to be Oswald's own signsture.
Can anyone confirm this? Anyone seen this particular publication of the deck before?
Also, can someone enlighten me as to what the initials T C S stand for? I feel sure it's not as simple as Tarot Card Society(I can't do the little triangle of dots between the letters, but I'd like to know what they are all about too please)
Cheers,
Sumada
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| Posted: Tue Feb 2nd, 2010 11:04 am |
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2nd Post |
debra
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Wow.
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| Posted: Tue Feb 2nd, 2010 12:59 pm |
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gregory
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 What she said !
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| Posted: Tue Feb 2nd, 2010 04:36 pm |
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Sebille
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I'm in awe, but have no idea about the TCS, sorry.
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| Posted: Tue Feb 2nd, 2010 09:03 pm |
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nicole
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perhaps the dots are some type of Masonic degree device ....
nice deck!!!! (is there a bitterly jealous emoticon?)
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| Posted: Thu Feb 4th, 2010 04:06 am |
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6th Post |
Abrac
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I agree the three dots have a masonic connection. What they're called or where they originated I don't know, but you see them very often in Freemasonry as a sort of punctuation. G:.A:.O.:T:.U:. (Grand Architect of the Universe) for example.
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| Posted: Fri Feb 5th, 2010 01:30 am |
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7th Post |
Abrac
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I found this in Mackey's Encyclopedia of Freemasonry:
"THREE POINTS Three points in a triangular form (:.) are placed after letters in a Masonic document to indicate that such letters are the initials of a Masonic title or of a technical word in Freemasonry, as G.:M:. for Grand Master, or G:.L:. for Grand Lodge. It is not a symbol, but simply a mark of abbreviation. The attempt, therefore, to trace it to the Hebrew three yods, a Cabalistic sign of the Tetragrammaton, or any other ancient symbol, is futile. It is an abbreviation, and nothing more; although it is probable that the idea was suggested by the sacred character of the number three as a Masonic number, and these tree dots might refer to the position of the three officers in a French Lodge. Ragon says (Orthodoxie Maçonnique, page 71) that the mark was first used by the Grand Orient of France in a circular issued August 12, 1774, in which we read "G:.O:. de France." A common expression of anti-Masonic writers in France when referring to the Brethren of the Craft is Fréres Trois Points, Three Point Brothers, a term cultivated in their mischief survives in honor because reminding the brotherhood of cherished association and symbols. The abbreviation is now constantly used in French documents, and, although not accepted by the English Freemasons, has been very generally adopted in other countries. In the United States, the use of this abbreviation is gradually extending." Mackey says it's futile to trace it to any symbolic meaning, but I suspect that just means he wasn't able to trace it. I'm sure it originally had symbolic meaning, but what that was seems to be lost. 
Last edited on Fri Feb 5th, 2010 03:39 am by Abrac
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| Posted: Fri Feb 5th, 2010 04:16 am |
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8th Post |
t.town.troy
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O.K., let's try to figure this out.
First: "a la T:.C:.S:." - after the manner of T:.C:.S:.
Second: "Ella M. Dunn"
Third: "hommage(?) Frat:." - your loyal brother.
Lastly: "Oswald Wirth"
I've never been too well at figuring out French.
Oh yeah, one more thing...
WOW!
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| Posted: Fri Feb 5th, 2010 09:04 pm |
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9th Post |
Abrac
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The T:.C:.S:. is the missing link. If we could figure out what that stands for the rest would fall into place.
T:.C:. is common in Freemasonry but is usually followed with an F:. for Tres Cher Frére (Very Dear Brother, or Dearest Brother). The S:. might stand for Soeur (Sister); or it could stand for Sage. Normally Sage means "wise" but my French/English dictionary says when referring to a woman it means "modest." It could be something else entirely, I have no clue really.
One question I have is whether T:.C:.S:. refers to Ella M Dunn or not. Could be a tough nut to crack. Not knowing what T:.C:.S:. stands for it could be impossible. I wouldn't be surprised if it's a genuine Wirth autograph though. Lucky Sumada. 
Last edited on Fri Feb 5th, 2010 09:06 pm by Abrac
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gregory
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If it refers to Ella it could very well be Soeur.
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debra
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It seems like a simple dedication, along the lines of:
"To my dear sister Ella, respectfully your bro Ozzie"
Last edited on Fri Feb 5th, 2010 09:24 pm by debra
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Sumada
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Hey, thank you everyone for your input into this "triangular three dot" query of mine, especially Abrac for your informative posts.
Of course, I was always aware that Mr. Crowley used it too, between the capital As, (A:.A:.), in the name of his magical order, the Argenteum Astrum, that he created in 1907 after leaving the Hermetic Order of the Golden Dawn. So it certainly is used as an abbreviation there; but then so is the 'full stop', as in A.A. for Automobile Association!
The triangle of dots symbol is also used in maths to mean 'therefore'.
'Tres Cher Soeur' certainly seems a very reasonable answer as to what the T:.C:.S:. stands for as well.
And Debra, it's certainly a lovely thought that Wirth might have refered to himself as "Ozzie". 
Thanks again, Sumada
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t.town.troy
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debra wrote: It seems like a simple dedication, along the lines of:
"To my dear sister Ella, respectfully your bro Ozzie"
A-ha! that definitely sounds better than what I tried to do, sometimes I do things the hard way!
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Demian Brennan-Gould
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Hey Sumada ~ I agree with the WOW votes! Fantastic!
This image may be hand done by Ozzie...
alas not in my collection, but I have scans.
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Sumada
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Yo Demian,
Crikey Nora !!!!!  (... as we say in the antipodes)
That deck looks equally amazing!!!!
I just missed out on a copy of it recently (and there are only 350 of them!), but then they did go for 900 and something Euro; and in all honesty they had been snapped up before I even knew they existed. But dreams are free...
But it's really weird how things 'tarot' are so very synchronous; Mary K. Greer's Feb. post revisits Ozzie's spread.
Cheers, Sumada
Last edited on Sun Feb 7th, 2010 10:28 pm by Sumada
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debra
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Sumada wrote:
Crikey Nora !!!!! (... as we say in the antipodes)
Argh, I worked in NZ and never heard this...my life is enriched
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Sumada
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"...Argh, I worked in NZ and never heard this...my life is enriched "
Debra,
I guess it just depends on your circle, and/or age 
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| Posted: Sun Nov 21st, 2010 03:59 am |
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18th Post |
Demian Brennan-Gould
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Oswald Wirth and Phoenician Letter Designs - REVISED 21 Nov.
Note: this image better reflects abracs comments/insights below...
Last edited on Sun Nov 21st, 2010 08:31 pm by Demian Brennan-Gould
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| Posted: Sun Nov 21st, 2010 08:39 am |
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19th Post |
Abrac
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That's awesome Demian! There's clearly a correspondence on most of them. Two or three are a little iffy but it's obvious what Wirth had in mind. I'm sure there's an explanation for the ones that don't exactly match.
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| Posted: Sun Nov 21st, 2010 08:33 pm |
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Demian Brennan-Gould
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Abrac wrote: That's awesome Demian! There's clearly a correspondence on most of them. Two or three are a little iffy but it's obvious what Wirth had in mind. I'm sure there's an explanation for the ones that don't exactly match.
Thanks, abrac! Your comments made me go to work a bit more in depth, and I knew
there was something somewhere that explained some of the "deeper/hidden" images
where Oswald Wirth used variations... his own book! Here is the relevant page image.
Last edited on Sun Nov 21st, 2010 08:39 pm by Demian Brennan-Gould
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| Posted: Mon Nov 22nd, 2010 07:23 am |
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| Posted: Mon Nov 22nd, 2010 05:01 pm |
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| Posted: Mon Nov 22nd, 2010 05:04 pm |
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gregory
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That link doesn't work...
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| Posted: Mon Nov 22nd, 2010 05:06 pm |
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| Posted: Mon Nov 22nd, 2010 05:21 pm |
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gregory
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That's OK - I read French. I thought you had linked to Something New !
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| Posted: Tue Nov 23rd, 2010 07:48 am |
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26th Post |
Abrac
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I read the Wirth article today and it took me down some avenues I wasn't expecting. Google translate isn't the greatest but I was able to get the main ideas.
I'm not sure the author was aware Wirth was using Phoenician. It's never mentioned, and the letter tet on the Hermit is simply referred to as a Celtic Cross.
I'm not convinced Wirth knowingly encoded any symbolism related to Rennes-le-Chateau or Rennes-les-Bains. As for the Blue Apple Pope, Wirth never even mentions the "blue apple" in his description of the scepter in his book Le Tarot. He describes the rest of it so I'd think if it was important it would have at least rated a mention. There are older Tarot de Marseille decks that have elements of the scepter colored different colors, including the "apple," the crossbars, and the balls on the ends of the crossbars. Wirth was probably just following an older tradition.
Plantard certainly seems to have found all kinds of hidden meaning, I'm just not sure he's correct. 
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| Posted: Mon Nov 29th, 2010 06:30 am |
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27th Post |
| Posted: Mon Nov 29th, 2010 08:26 am |
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28th Post |
Sumada
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Hey great! Thanks Demian.
I found these once, but then I then lost them...
Are they actually by Oswald, and if so, are they before or after his 1889 versions?
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Abrac
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Those cards don't look like they're by Wirth. They might be but they don't look like any of his others. I bet they're Wirth-inspired but executed by someone else.
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Demian Brennan-Gould
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Abrac wrote: Those cards don't look like they're by Wirth. They might be but they don't look like any of his others. I bet they're Wirth-inspired but executed by someone else.
They do have a delicacy of detail that we might expect from a young Joseph Paul Oswald Wirth. He did lots of stuff besides Tarot... fashion illustrations? advertising design presentations? it does show in his style. And he got around... Paris, London, Paris again, back to London, Paris... a busy boy.
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goldenweb
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Abrac wrote: Those cards don't look like they're by Wirth. They might be but they don't look like any of his others. I bet they're Wirth-inspired but executed by someone else.
Demian wrote:
They do have a delicacy of detail that we might expect from a young Joseph Paul Oswald Wirth.
Compare the writing of the titles with Wirth's inscription at the top of this page. Interesting... Any handwriting experts around?
Fascinating thread, BTW - Thanks for sharing your fantastic find, Sumada.
Pen
Last edited on Wed Dec 1st, 2010 09:00 am by goldenweb
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Abrac
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I found pictures of 20 of these cards in Kaplan, Vol.2, Pg.397. His commentary, on pg.396, has English translations of the significations at the bottom of the cards and the divinatory meanings in the borders. There's also a short article on pg.391. For those who don't have the book here's what it says:
"Pen and Ink Designs, circa 1901--Twenty-two Major Arcana drawn in ink and colored by hand seem to have been copied from the designs of Oswald Wirth, either from Wirth's edition of 350 decks issued by E. Poirel, or from the illustrations of Wirth's cards that appeared in Les Tarots des Boehmiens, by Papus. Both Papus's book and Wirth's deck were published in 1889. The hand-written signification at the bottom of each card is taken from Papus's book, while the divinatory meanings written on the right margin of each card are from Practical Astrology, by Compte de Saint-Germain. William Keller's date of 1880 for this deck appears early, and the deck was probably made after 1889. Each card is tiled in French, numbered, and has a Hebrew letter. A zodiacal or planetary sign appears on each of the cards except for 0 LE FOU, 1 LE BATELEUR, and 13 LA MORT. The pictures are more crudely drawn and colored than the Papus book illustrations or Wirth's cards. In the caption (Kaplan's commentary on pg.396), differences between this deck and the original Wirth cards are noted, and the significations and the divinatory meanings are translated from French."
The divinatory meanings are taken directly from the "Table of Twenty-two Major Arcanes" in Saint-Germain's book, first published in Chicago, 1901. It seems unlikely to me that Wirth was responsible for the divinatory meanings. I can't imagine him consulting Saint-Germain for divinatory meanings for his own cards. He could have made the cards and then someone else put the meanings on later, but Wirth either signed or initialed his other known works. The astrological and planetary correspondences also seem to follow Saint-Germain which suggests to me the divinatory meanings and the correspondences were likely done at the same time.
Last edited on Wed Dec 1st, 2010 11:33 pm by Abrac
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Demian Brennan-Gould
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Cheers Abrac. I do love good research (steps upon the mountain). Especially as you noted, several hands may have been involved. C'est pourquoi j'aime Tarot!
*
Last edited on Thu Dec 2nd, 2010 07:34 am by Demian Brennan-Gould
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