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| Posted: Wed Aug 26th, 2009 12:19 am |
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bigcaat
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Hi. I'm new here, and although I have a pretty decent collection of cards, I'm just now beginning to understand some of the differences between the rider decks.
Someone just sent me a two decks, a standard and an original. Both have a fairly high gloss on them, the standard, not so bad, it's an older criss-crossed back, but the Original is slick, slick, slick. Ick.
The box says 1993, but the person who gave it to me said that older ones were not so slick. How old would you have to go to find those and where would one find something like that?
Also, what year did the standard decks go from the pink backs (my first deck, but I no longer have the box) to the criss-crosses (all of my old, old, mini decks have those backs, but have no gloss on them at all.) Again, unfortunately, I didn't keep the boxes from my very, very, first decks when I was 16. Stupid kid! ;)
Thanks,
Caat
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| Posted: Wed Aug 26th, 2009 01:46 am |
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2nd Post |
skad1
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I created a pdf of this article I has seen awhile ago. It's too lage to post here, but i'll chop up the pages so you can get an idea of it. Attachment: frank-jensen-early-rws-1-8.pdf (Downloaded 61 times)
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| Posted: Wed Aug 26th, 2009 01:46 am |
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| Posted: Wed Aug 26th, 2009 01:47 am |
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| Posted: Wed Aug 26th, 2009 01:47 am |
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skad1
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One more, this is a great reference for the backs of the decks Attachment: Cardbacks.pdf (Downloaded 34 times)
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| Posted: Wed Aug 26th, 2009 01:48 am |
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debra
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Hi, welcome.
Check out Holly Voley's Rider-Waite page--a great set of links and info: http://home.comcast.net/~vilex/
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| Posted: Wed Aug 26th, 2009 01:50 am |
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skad1
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debra wrote: Hi, welcome.
Check out Holly Voley's Rider-Waite page--a great set of links and info: http://home.comcast.net/~vilex/
Wow, we were posting at the same time. I think the pdf's are from that source.
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| Posted: Wed Aug 26th, 2009 06:10 am |
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Abrac
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bigcaat, the ones printed in Italy have pretty glossy lamination; they're the newest ones. It should say where it was printed somewhere on the box, or it might be on one of the extra cards.
How far you'll have to go back just depends. To be safe probably 1985 or earlier. The ones printed between 1985 and the Italy ones tend to be a bit shiny and slick but not nearly as much as the Italian printings. It sounds kinda like your standard one might be from this time period (after 1985 and pre-Italian).
But the dates on the box, cards or booklet aren't nearly as reliable as the US Games address:
1971-1980 468 Park Avenue South, New York (or just New York, NY)
1980-1985 38 E. 32 St., New York
1985-Present Stamford, CT
There are also some nice early versions by Rider & Co. from the 70s; they come in a two-piece box with a blue lift-off lid. And there's a very nice version by Samuel Weiser from the 70s; it comes in a yellow box like US Games' but it says Samuel Weiser on the box and booklet.
As far as I know the criss-cross backs started with US Games in 1971.
Last edited on Thu Aug 27th, 2009 06:30 am by Abrac
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| Posted: Thu Aug 27th, 2009 09:56 pm |
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9th Post |
bigcaat
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Thanks everybody, for the great info.
I think I got my first deck, (pink backs) in 1972. Like I say, I don't still have the box or extra cards, so I guess there's no way of knowing when they were actually printed. I would just like to know, when buying cards online, what to look for if I want to get the older, non-shiny decks.
I know that the pink backs are University Press, but I would love to know of where people go to look for vintage decks, or if they just happen on them at garage sales and stuff. ;)
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| Posted: Fri Aug 28th, 2009 12:17 am |
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10th Post |
debra
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E-bay, and the tarot trading threads at the Aeclectic Tarot Forum (http://www.tarotforum.net)
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| Posted: Fri Aug 28th, 2009 12:48 am |
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11th Post |
bigcaat
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debra wrote:
E-bay, and the tarot trading threads at the Aeclectic Tarot Forum (http://www.tarotforum.net)
Yeah, I've looked on ebay, but it seems as though a lot of people don't put the publication dates on there, so you don't really know.
I'll check out the aeclectic thread. I thought it was down, but just realized the parenthesis is getting picked up in the URL.
http://www.tarotforum.net/forumdisplay.php?f=3
Thanks. :)
C.Last edited on Fri Aug 28th, 2009 12:50 am by bigcaat
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| Posted: Fri Aug 28th, 2009 04:31 am |
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debra
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If they post images of the cards on e-bay, look to see if there's a tiny copyright notice on the lower right border. Those without it (like my very first deck, now coffee-stained and thus ever more magickal) are very nice--they will have been published pre-1972.
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| Posted: Fri Aug 28th, 2009 05:53 am |
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13th Post |
bigcaat
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debra wrote:
If they post images of the cards on e-bay, look to see if there's a tiny copyright notice on the lower right border. Those without it (like my very first deck, now coffee-stained and thus ever more magickal) are very nice--they will have been published pre-1972.
Great tip. Thanks! :)
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R Roffel
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For many years, publishers of esoteric stuff who knew only enough to cash in on the hippie trend of the 1960s and to the mid 1970s would make bizarre choices for their tarot card backs.
My original deck, a Coleman-Smith Waite, was published by University Books from New Hyde Park, New York in the early 1970s.
The design on the back is a mauve and pink affair. The center has an ankh symbol. I'm still not pleased they did that. Its a fairly nice deck, but a flaky choice for a back, in my opinion.
Also check for mis-aligned colours and poor reproductions of drawings. That may indicate the decks are either counterfeits or second or third generation copies of older decks made by companies who were printing them simply to make a fast buck.
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| Posted: Sun Jan 17th, 2010 05:06 am |
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missy
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Hi. I was wondering about "yellow box" riders, and looking for info on how to make sure I get one of the pre-glossy ones.
I know to look for ones that do not have the U.S. Games copyright down the side of each card.
Also, I think the early 1970s ones do not have an ISBN # printed on the box. Is that right?
But somewhere, can't remember where and cannot find it, I remember there was a difference as to the back of the yellow box.
My RWS purchased in the early 90s does not have Pamela Colman Smith's name in bold on the back of the box. For some reason, I am thinking her name was in bold on the earlier versions. Can anyone confirm this or possibly post a photo of the back of the box?
I've seen Holly's site and it is quite helpful especially for card backs, but I don't remember much on boxes.
Thanks!
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| Posted: Sun Jan 17th, 2010 07:38 am |
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debra
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. Attached Image (viewed 219 times):
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| Posted: Sun Jan 17th, 2010 07:39 am |
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debra
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. Attached Image (viewed 220 times):
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| Posted: Sun Jan 17th, 2010 07:39 am |
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debra
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| Posted: Sun Jan 17th, 2010 07:40 am |
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debra
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. Attached Image (viewed 217 times):
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| Posted: Sun Jan 17th, 2010 07:40 am |
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debra
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| Posted: Sun Jan 17th, 2010 08:09 am |
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missy
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debra,
That is VERY helpful.
Thank you!
Especially when I was seeing a similar "Printed in Switzerland by Muller and Cie" on eBay but it had an ISBN# on it. Which confused me, as I didn't know how to date it.
Image attached.
But I gather that one is much later and would have the more laminated look plus the "U.S. Games" copyright running down the side of each card.
Thank you again! I am looking for one of these older ones, and don't want to accidentally end up with a newer one.
Attached Image (viewed 233 times):
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| Posted: Sun Jan 17th, 2010 08:13 am |
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missy
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P.S. - I do not remember where I heard the info about the "bold" names, as in "Pamela Colman Smith" and "Arthur Edward Waite" being in boldface on the back of the box, nor what it means if they are in boldface.
Clearly yours aren't in boldface and NO ISBN# anywhere to be found. So I know to look for that.
But just as a curiousity, does anyone know what it means if the names are in boldface? Is this a later printing? My box is from the 90s yet there is no boldface.
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| Posted: Sun Jan 17th, 2010 10:05 am |
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debra
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What you want to keep your eye out for is simply the cards without the copyright notice on the bottom corner. Usually if an e-bay seller announces "Vintage deck from 1971!!!" they're going off the copyright on the box or the cards. Boxes aren't a reliable indicator of what's inside, though. They print boxes separately from the cards.
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| Posted: Sun Jan 17th, 2010 10:12 am |
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gregory
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The copyright thing wasn't on the cards (only on the boxes !) till the 80s. See here.
But here's the thread about the yellow boxes and their differences..
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| Posted: Sun Jan 17th, 2010 11:00 am |
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26th Post |
missy
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Thanks, gregory! Interesting reading! 
It appears from this post that the boldface "Pamela Colman Smith" is on later boxes with typeset (versus the older scripted or hand-lettered) cards.
http://i2.photobucket.com/albums/y43/Fulgour/TYPESETTITLESBOX.jpg
I bought my yellow box in the early 90s, but it was before 1995. Therefore I still got the old calligraphy titles. My box does not have PCS's name in bold.
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| Posted: Sun Jan 17th, 2010 11:02 am |
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27th Post |
missy
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debra wrote:
What you want to keep your eye out for is simply the cards without the copyright notice on the bottom corner. Usually if an e-bay seller announces "Vintage deck from 1971!!!" they're going off the copyright on the box or the cards. Boxes aren't a reliable indicator of what's inside, though. They print boxes separately from the cards.
Will do, debra! I'll look for cards without the copyright. 
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| Posted: Sun Jan 17th, 2010 11:09 am |
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debra
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Well let me just add that the not-so-glossy cards with the calligraphy titles are very nice, but unless you're a collector
there's no reason to make yourself crazy looking for them.
I also like the "Original" with the blue and white backs.
Good luck!
Last edited on Sun Jan 17th, 2010 11:10 am by debra
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| Posted: Sun Jan 17th, 2010 03:55 pm |
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Demian Brennan-Gould
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gregory wrote: But here's the thread about the yellow boxes and their differences..
Hi gregory ~ Thanks for that! As I remember, the author of that thread (Citrin) received a copy the deck she was seeking as a gift, in a handmade box featuring her own artwork (gleaned on-line). Fulgour told me he felt it would be nearly impossible for someone in Sweden to be able to buy the right deck through eBay without knowing exactly what to look for. I tend to agree...
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| Posted: Mon Jan 18th, 2010 10:51 pm |
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gregory
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Hi - er - Demian....
Have you EVER come across a blue TUCK box ?
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| Posted: Mon Jan 18th, 2010 11:36 pm |
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Demian Brennan-Gould
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gregory wrote: Hi - er - Demian....
Have you EVER come across a blue TUCK box ?
Hi gregory 
It'd be cool maybe if I made a few, and posted images around,
but to me the word "anathema" comes to mind as regards any
sort of early UK edition of the Smith Tarot in a "tuck box" box.
Collectors of the Blue Box might well note the LWB UK printers,
as there are half-a-dozen (and one blank) indications on those.
There is also the mysterious word-for-word printings between
Rider and University Books on the early versions of the LWBs
which seems to indicate UB plagiarized Rider, re: UK spelling.
"The Traveller's Tarot" by Rider (1975 mini) is a lot of fun too!
My collection of Blue Box (pre-copyright) decks is mid 20s...
and mid 30s Weiser box and/or LWB decks...and that's a lot.
And of course then there's "Lots!" of the early USG imports.
I'm willing to present my views as being at the "expert" level,
which means I could put almost anyone to sleep with details.
Needless to say, it has been my collecting focus ~ and still is!
edit re typos
Last edited on Mon Jan 18th, 2010 11:51 pm by Demian Brennan-Gould
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| Posted: Tue Jan 19th, 2010 11:21 am |
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32nd Post |
gregory
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Yes - that was what I thought - but a respected (by me anyway !) collector on AT saw one on ebay - the box was even FOLDER FLAT so it HAD to be tuck. I did wonder if it was one of the Fabbri prints done by LS - they did one they called the Tarot Universel (but it is a RWS with added titles, NOT a Universal !) in a blue tuck box....
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| Posted: Tue Jan 19th, 2010 03:59 pm |
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33rd Post |
Demian Brennan-Gould
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gregory wrote: Yes - that was what I thought - but a respected (by me anyway !) collector on AT saw one on ebay - the box was even FOLDER FLAT so it HAD to be tuck. I did wonder if it was one of the Fabbri prints done by LS - they did one they called the Tarot Universel (but it is a RWS with added titles, NOT a Universal !) in a blue tuck box....
...or maybe it was a flattened box, and just looked like a 'tuck' style... or it was handmade, especially as 'tuck' boxes are very easy to make, you could even use the remants of a 2-piece box to put together as a 'tuck' flap version... and how unfortunate that no image was copied...
...check out some of the decks on eBay Italia... there are editions being sold that do not respect the phony USGames copyright, and I wish there were lots more... but Tarot is a small town, and there isn't really any money in it anyway...
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| Posted: Tue Jan 19th, 2010 07:00 pm |
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34th Post |
R Roffel
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ISBNs wer not in use until 1974, when the publishing industry decided to standardize the way in which books were catalogued for distribution. I believe that the Library of Congress had a part in this.
So any books or ephemera like tarot cards with no ISBNs was probably published before 1974. There may have been small publishers who were not on the ISBN registry that were not able to be on the list.
I believe that ISSNs, which are the magazine equivalent of ISBNs came a bit later.
PS ISBN stands for International Serial Book Number. ISSN stands for International Serial Standard Number (if I remember correctly).
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| Posted: Tue Jan 19th, 2010 08:16 pm |
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gregory
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As far as I know these is in any case no blue box with an ISBN.
However - my oldest style blue box (1972, the LWB says) DID come with a very small copy of the Key to the Tarot (card sized, but not as an LWB) - which says right inside it Second Impression 2003 (published by Rider, BTW) and it HAS an ISBN, so.....
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| Posted: Fri Jan 29th, 2010 04:45 am |
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36th Post |
missy
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Woo hooo!!!
I am now the proud owner of a yellow box Samuel Weiser! 
Rather, it has to wing its way to me via post, and then it will be mine ...
No copyrights on the cards, and comes complete with LWB in good condition!
Wheeeee! 
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| Posted: Fri Jan 29th, 2010 04:54 am |
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37th Post |
missy
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gregory wrote:
Yes - that was what I thought - but a respected (by me anyway !) collector on AT saw one on ebay - the box was even FOLDER FLAT so it HAD to be tuck. I did wonder if it was one of the Fabbri prints done by LS - they did one they called the Tarot Universel (but it is a RWS with added titles, NOT a Universal !) in a blue tuck box....
I myself bid on that auction, but lost out because I did not bid high enough. I couldn't find the auction nor the photos, though, until tonight. Through sheer luck or happy accident, I found the photos, as I logged into bidnip to bid on a yellow box Samuel Weiser.
I thought I was going crazy when everyone kept saying "no blue tuckboxes" but now I can show proof, as I logged into my bidnip account and saw old auctions I had bid on, and luckily the item still has its photos up!
The auction can be seen here:
http://cgi.ebay.com/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&item=390113056749
And photos can be seen here on Auctiva. The first two are of the blue tuckbox:
http://www.auctiva.com/hostedimages/showimage.aspx?gid=342643&ppid=1122&image=315557805&images=315557805,315557787,315557777,315557754,315557742,315557729,315557708&formats=0,0,0,0,0,0,0&format=0
For posterity's sake, I will post links to the images here, as the auction won't be up forever (in fact, I'm surprised it is still up, since it is dated Nov. 8 2009):
http://www.tarotforum.net/attachment.php?attachmentid=40642
http://www.tarotforum.net/attachment.php?attachmentid=40643
Attached is a pic of the auction.
Attached Image (viewed 136 times):
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debra
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missy wrote:
Thank you, Debra. I owe you a ton for posting those pix of the yellow boxes so I knew what to look for!
I'll keep that in mind
*blushes foolishly*
Last edited on Sun Feb 7th, 2010 04:42 am by debra
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Demian Brennan-Gould
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missy wrote:
Oh, and I have my FIRST BLUSHING FOOL!
Hi missy, and congratulations! I hope you got 2 blanks too!
The Blushing Fool signifies an especially early Rider edition,
and you'll notice The High Priestess is blushing a bit as well.
These decks are really special, turning up 15% of the time...
and almost never with Blue Box editions, which adds to the
mystery ~ were these being done at a different print shop...
run off to meet demands... and then vanishing, before even
the copyright was added '75. There are blushing Minis too,
but not on all of the early Minis... so it's a genuine mystery.
Weiser sets sometimes have the "Weiser" LWB or they may
have a USGames LWB with Weiser on the box only... and...
sometimes there's a Weiser sticker put on top over the USG.
*
And I'd like to add this image: the "tuck box" Blue Box...
mostly so people can save the image as a visual reference.
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missy
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Demian Brennan-Gould wrote:
missy wrote:
Oh, and I have my FIRST BLUSHING FOOL!
Hi missy, and congratulations! I hope you got 2 blanks too!
Yes, I got two blank cards! I didn't know that was significant. Do tell!
Demian Brennan-Gould wrote:
The Blushing Fool signifies an especially early Rider edition,
and you'll notice The High Priestess is blushing a bit as well.
These decks are really special, turning up 15% of the time...
and almost never with Blue Box editions, which adds to the
mystery ~ were these being done at a different print shop...
run off to meet demands... and then vanishing, before even
the copyright was added '75. There are blushing Minis too,
but not on all of the early Minis... so it's a genuine mystery.
Weiser sets sometimes have the "Weiser" LWB or they may
have a USGames LWB with Weiser on the box only... and...
sometimes there's a Weiser sticker put on top over the USG.
Wow, let me check my High Priestess. YES! She's blushing, too! 
My LWB is as follows (in great shape except for one tiny crease in the corner):
On the cover of the LWB, it has the Magician, with the words "The Rider Tarot Deck Instructions" above him. Below him it says in all caps on one line:
SAMUEL WEISER, INC.
and on the next line it says
734 Broadway, New York, N.Y. 10003
That is all.
On page 2, from top to bottom, it reads (line breaks and caps as they appear):
SAMUEL WEISER, INC.
New York, N.Y. 10003
For use with
THE RIDER TAROT DECK
The original and only
authorized edition of the
famous 78-card Tarot Deck
designed by
PAMELA COLMAN SMITH
under the direction of
ARTHUR EDWARD WAITE
Reissued in colloboration
with Miss Sybil Waite and
Rider & Company, London
Copyright © 1971 by U.S. GAMES SYSTEMS, INC., N.Y. 10016
~~~
The box is pretty beat-up but holds together. The top two small tabs on the sides of the tuckbox (the small ones you tuck in first) are missing entirely.
Top of tuckbox says
MADE IN SWITZERLAND
EXPRESSLY FOR
SAMUEL WEISER, INC.
New York, N.Y. 10003
~~~~
I would have posted the individual pix of the blue box instead of the link to my post at AT but I didn't know how to put more than one image in a post over here. Thanks for posting that.
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missy
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I am going to post these from the Auctiva site (attached to the mysterious blue tuckbox eBay auction) where images of the auction can still be seen, although since this auction ended Nov. 8 it would not surprise me if they were taken down Feb. 8 which is tomorrow.
So, here are the first three images on Auctiva, in the order they appeared.
Can anyone tell if in the third image if that blue tuckbox had a Blushing Fool? I can't tell. Attached Image (viewed 109 times):
 Last edited on Sun Feb 7th, 2010 06:57 am by missy
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missy
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Second image of tuckbox:
(Second of seven images on Auctiva)Attached Image (viewed 109 times):
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missy
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ETA: This Fool is from the blue tuckbox auction.
I am not certain whether or not this is a blushing Fool. It may be a regular Fool ...
BUT! I believe he IS blushing! Attached Image (viewed 110 times):
 Last edited on Sun Feb 7th, 2010 08:39 am by missy
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missy
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There is also just the top tip of the Sun card on that last image (for the blue tuckbox auction).
It doesn't look like it has the extra "squiggle."
I don't remember the significance of the extra "squiggle." 
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Demian Brennan-Gould
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Hi missy ~ your Fool looks Blushing to me!
I classify the printing types on The Fool as
1) Blushing
2) Cream Faced
...yes, there's a bit of literary fun to it all,
and this only truly applies to the earliest
printings, since those are the collectibles.
Cream Faced Fools have solid colouring,
and Blushing Fools have a mottled look.
2 blank cards means of course the deck
is from before the Advertising card was
added... first singly, with still one blank,
and then both extra cards were adverts.
The best older decks were those beloved,
or kept in a quiet darkness, undisturbed...
they almost always still have both blanks.
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missy
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Demian Brennan-Gould wrote:
Hi missy ~ your Fool looks Blushing to me!
I classify the printing types on The Fool as
1) Blushing
2) Cream Faced
...yes, there's a bit of literary fun to it all,
and this only truly applies to the earliest
printings, since those are the collectibles.
Cream Faced Fools have solid colouring,
and Blushing Fools have a mottled look.
2 blank cards means of course the deck
is from before the Advertising card was
added... first singly, with still one blank,
and then both extra cards were adverts.
The best older decks were those beloved,
or kept in a quiet darkness, undisturbed...
they almost always still have both blanks.
Hi Demian -
Thank you for the great information on the two versions of the Fool! Good stuff!
Before we confuse EVERYONE
I should clarify (in case it isn't clear) that is not my Fool from my Weiser yellow box. That is the Fool on the Blue tuckbox auction I discovered -- with Le Fanu's great memory jogging -- without whom I never would have found it)!
He said, I swore I saw an auction .... and I thought, YES, I have seen that auction, too! And bid on it, I think?? and so it went ...
The Fool on my yellow box Weiser is as you would call it a full Blush! 
And my High Priestess looks rather sunburned!
Oh and thank you so much for the information on the blank cards!
My Weiser yellow box does indeed have two blank cards.
Before they were printing advertisements, eh? That is nice!
Last edited on Sun Feb 7th, 2010 08:38 am by missy
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missy
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Demian Brennan-Gould wrote:
I classify the printing types on The Fool as
1) Blushing
2) Cream Faced
...yes, there's a bit of literary fun to it all,
and this only truly applies to the earliest
printings, since those are the collectibles.
Cream Faced Fools have solid colouring,
and Blushing Fools have a mottled look.
2 blank cards means of course the deck
is from before the Advertising card was
added... first singly, with still one blank,
and then both extra cards were adverts.
The best older decks were those beloved,
or kept in a quiet darkness, undisturbed...
they almost always still have both blanks.
Hi Damien,
I have another question for you.
Which one is the rarer - the Blushing or the Cream-faced?
I attach a pic I found - it illustrates the difference!
Blushing Fool on the right, and Cream-faced on the left, if I understand correctly.
To me, the Cream-faced Fool looks a bit like he has lines in his face, whereas like you said, the Blushing has an overall mottled look. But the Cream-faced does appear to have almost-vertical lines across his face ...? Attached Image (viewed 97 times):
 Last edited on Sun Feb 7th, 2010 03:42 pm by missy
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Sumada
Member
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Demian, are either of these Fools blushing? I'd never heard about that before...
Attached Image (viewed 93 times):
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