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| Posted: Mon Apr 19th, 2010 04:04 pm |
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1st Post |
Arnell
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Hello Tarot friends, I could use a little help with this...I received an interesting question from a Tarot friend who publishes decks that you are probably familiar with; in a foreign land far, far away. I’m sorry I can’t divulge the details of my friend the publisher or the deck in question at this time, but imagine it being a classic deck most of us know and love. Anyway, someone in the U.S. contacted them asking if it was possible to license the images in this classic deck which they publish for use in a smart phone application. This company plans to offer Tarot decks which are in the public domain as free apps to customers, but would charge a bit of money for premium decks (such as my friend’s Tarot publication). They asked for permission and how much it would cost to license the deck(s) for this purpose? I have no idea about this sort of issue but would like to help if possible. Do any of you have good advice, or have a background in copyright law, or know how much money is reasonable to request in this instance and if it is even a good idea for them? Your advice would be appreciated and will be forwarded on to my friend. Thank you in advance! Warmly, Arnell Ando
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| Posted: Mon Apr 19th, 2010 07:48 pm |
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2nd Post |
Mr. la-luna
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| Joined: | Sat Sep 8th, 2007 |
| Location: | Aalst, Belgium |
| Posts: | 525 |
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Hello dear, the difficulties lie in the fact that there are 2 systems of intellectual property involved (the European i presume) and the USA, normally a licence can be given for any chosen period of time from some month to many years.
If you want more information you could direct them to the USPTO (for usa) http://www.uspto.gov/ (the official USA instance in charge of Intellectual property)
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| Posted: Mon Apr 19th, 2010 08:38 pm |
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3rd Post |
Arnell
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Thanks Stefan my dear…but my friend does not speak English much and looking at that site, its way too much legalease for my arsty right-sided brain. I felt the wick ignite and my poor head was about to explode so I had to bolt out of there, sorry. But thanks anyway…
I think this company will make the Tarot app with or without permission from my friend the publisher, (since its such an old deck), but they are trying to be polite and ask permission and for a fair price to license it and I was just wondering if anyone else knows what people do in this instance if they (the publisher) are possibly interested in pursuing the offer, but don’t want to be screwed over (i.e. taken advantage of)….Thanks!, Arnell
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| Posted: Mon Apr 19th, 2010 09:20 pm |
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4th Post |
papoon
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| Joined: | Mon Apr 7th, 2008 |
| Location: | California USA |
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First a disclaimer. I'm not a lawyer and I don't have any specific IP law expertise. So the following is worth exactly what you've paid for it.
I'm a bit unclear from your description if your friend's deck is simply an edition of a deck whose art is in the public domain or if they have made some changes that render it a derivative work.
If there's nothing that differentiates your friend's edition from any other version of the original art, the app developer wouldn't need to ask permission at all. If that's the case and they're asking permission anyway, it's to their credit. There really aren't any firm guidelines for such a situation. It would just be a matter of negotiation to find an amount that works for both parties. As far as it's being a good idea for your friend, that would depend on whether or not he or she had any interest of having their own app in the future.
If your friend has modified the art in some way to create a derivative work, the developer is required to come to some licensing agreement with them in order to use it. In that case, your friend would probably be able to negotiate a higher fee (depending on how strongly the developer wants to use that particular deck).
In either case, your friend should probably specify a non-exclusive license in order to keep their future options open. If, for some reason, the developers insist on an exclusive license, the price would be substantially higher.Last edited on Mon Apr 19th, 2010 10:21 pm by papoon
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| Posted: Mon Apr 19th, 2010 10:07 pm |
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5th Post |
Arnell
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Thank you for your help Papoon,
Yes, my friend has made modifications to the existing work but the smart phone fellow exhibits good taste in preferring my friend's version of the publication of this classic deck. However, if my friend is not reasonable (in their estimation) I suspect the smart phone chap will just go with another version of this deck, which may possibly be in the pubic domain. A fair price...I have no idea what a fair price for something like this is... But yes, you make a very good point about specifying a non-exclusive license. Thank you for this info, it helps and I appreciate your advice.
Warmly,
Arnell
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| Posted: Tue Apr 20th, 2010 01:32 am |
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6th Post |
papoon
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The company I work at has licensed technology to one of the most successful iPhone apps of the last six months or so, and I can tell you that with so many fingers in the pie, there is not a huge amount of money in it.
If I understand correctly that the developers are planning to charge extra for premium decks, one approach your friend could take is to negotiate a percentage share of the revenue from each of their decks sold. That becomes a no-risk proposition for the developers, as they would be paying your friend only to the extent that their deck generates extra revenue.
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| Posted: Tue Apr 20th, 2010 03:36 am |
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7th Post |
Arnell
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Wow, that seems like a good idea Papoon. A win-win, with little risk to anybody. Thanks very much for your expertise and I appreciate your time also in this matter, you're swell!
Warmly
Arnell
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| Posted: Fri Apr 23rd, 2010 09:52 am |
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8th Post |
AdamMcLean
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I was approached recently by someone with the same request - using some of the tarot decks I had published for a smart phone app. Unfortunately, I was unable to meet this request for two reasons.
Firstly, I am not the copyright holder of the decks I publish, as the copyright of the images remains with the artist and I only have an agreement to issue 100 decks.
Secondly, this company really only wanted 78 card decks.
Regarding the business side of this. I doubt whether there is much money to be made from these. I wonder if the developer, perhaps having approached US Games, Lo Scarabeo etc, and finding their charges too high, was looking around for a cheaper solution.
There would appear to be little downside for the tarot copyright holder as these lo res images for the smart phones would not be printable or piratable, so it is all gain with no risk.
If I had a copyright on a deck and someone approached me I would be happy to accept say 500 dollars up front for this. There is no work to do and no waiting for a royalty payment which may never come. I doubt whether these apps will make much money for the companies and there will probably be some competition between providers. How long such providers witll stay in business is uncertain. They raise capital to launch an idea with no real certainty of how much they return they will make. Take their capital and run !
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| Posted: Fri Apr 23rd, 2010 04:02 pm |
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9th Post |
forkissima
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Arnell, I'm a lawyer but not an IP law specialist. If the artwork of your friend is still in his property (i.e. he didn't sell the rights) then the company needs to come to a licensing agreement with him to use his images. If your friend used let's say Leonardo's work which is in the public domain and made a tarot deck out of it, then that deck is not under IP law protection and the company doesn't need your friend's permission.
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| Posted: Sat Apr 24th, 2010 12:25 am |
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10th Post |
Arnell
Member
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Thank you Adam for your thoughtful response. You bring up good points. My friend has been offered $400. in advance plus 20% of sales once that advance is met (if it ever is...as you say). The developer will test the market with a Smart Phone and if it does well, try to sell the App (Application) to iPad. All the details have yet to be worked out but it seems like a reasonable offer, at this early stage in the game.
Thank you also Forkissima. You make a very good point.
I appreciate both of you kindly giving time and attention to this matter. I feel protective of my friend and didn't know anything about this App market and appreciate all the advice given to me. I've shared the info with my friend and hopefully it will be a successful little venture for all concerned. I'll keep you posted if anything ever comes of this deal that is worth mentioning.
Warmly,
Arnell
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